A Consolidation of Community Suggestions to Improve GW -- Both PvP and PvE

[KuTeBaka]

Originally Posted by silvertemplar

Solution 2: Open the playing field for rewards/drops based on a combination of
(a) Speed of killing
(b) Hits taken/ Hits Prevented
(c) Hits landed [melee/spells]
(d) Damage taken / Damage inflicted
(e) Number of attackers vs number of defenders

that means the only people that get the drops are the main damage dealers, not the support classes.

[Makkert]

Please delete my post if i break thread rules, or it is allready said. But it is late and i'm tired right now. So i make it short:
a chatwindow for allied guilds would be great.

how implemented?
well, i can imagine a sort list like friendlist, but for guildleaders only. The Guildleader can invite another to the list. On acceptence by the other guildleader, the friendshipbond is established.
People chatting in the chatwindow for allied guilds will be displayed as:

[guildtag]Name: message

what good would such a feature do?
There are various reasons. Guilds are clubs of likeminded players. Some guilds have the same mindsetting. Would you rather have a PUG, or team up with likeminded guilds you come across? i'll opt for no.2 if possible. A merger of these guilds is often out of the question. The guilds are proud of themselves, and want to keep their own cape/name. For this reason, various small guilds still exist probably.

Another issue are big guilds. My guilld was forced to set up a sisterguild shortly after release due to the sheer number of players. Communications are forced through Teamspeak or Ventrillio. Not everyone is able to communicate this way. It cripples communications this way.

A third reason maybe can maybe found in PvP. A part of tombs/HoH seems to be the 2 vs the strongest team. Another part is the Worlds at War. Teaming up with that other team that defends your worldpart by quickly establishing allied guilds? well, maybe that really will cause worlds at war.... (and maybe disadvantage Europe?) This third point should be approached with care.

[Weezer_Blue]

Hate to drag off topic. But I have to respond...

Saying "just don't talk about UAS" is stupid... Yes, we've got an official response saying no. But until we get an official response saying why that can't be easily revolved (see other suggestions I made), then I'm just going to assume that A.Net doesn't know about it yet, and keep suggesting it. Using an alternative when your primary solution has not been disproved for a valid reason is ignorant.

[Orochim4ru]

They start out with 15% dmg while health > 50%, something than takes forever to find in PvE

I'd just like to point out that pretty much everything with the exception of faction unlocked mods are easily obtainable via collectors. Items with 15>50 aren't rare. Gold items with 15>50 are, and they're a status symbol. I don't mind using my collector's healing ankh, or my collector's holy wand, because they're just as good as the PvP items, because they ARE the pvp items without the word PvP in their names.

Yes, we've got an official response saying no. But until we get an official response saying why that can't be easily revolved (see other suggestions I made), then I'm just going to assume that A.Net doesn't know about it yet, and keep suggesting it. Using an alternative when your primary solution has not been disproved for a valid reason is ignorant

Total UAS makes all of PvE optional and lets people who have never played the game before walk into tombs, set up a build, then flunk out horribly. Skill doesn't mean everything is given to you on a platter. I'd support an alternative unlocking system, but UAS totally takes the carrot out of PvE playing for me.

[Diomedes]

Regarding Protective Bond and PvE. The core of this problem is not with the spell , or even the combination of spells, it's the overall mechanism used to gain rewards/items.

I agree.

Solution 1: Change the system not to be reliant on "solo farming" to get the best rewards. Simple as that. In fact make that, change/improve the system not to force ANY "farming" to gain rewards.

Suggestion : Create a system that do not reward for large amount of kills, but rather on task completions [i.e. quests]. This itself will force players to fight a wide array of mobs [and not just specific farming mobs], INCLUDING mobs using protective bond themselves in the same way

And I'd like to suggest a way to do that. Many quests in UW/FoW end with a chest appearing. Rather than having one or two items drop that are randomly assigned, have an item drop for everyone in the party. That way you get the same great reward for either doing it alone or in a group.

Solution 2: Open the playing field for rewards/drops based on a combination of
(a) Speed of killing
(b) Hits taken/ Hits Prevented
(c) Hits landed [melee/spells]
(d) Damage taken / Damage inflicted
(e) Number of attackers vs number of defenders

I'd rather not see that happen. It's only a matter of time until the equation is (at least in part) determined, at which point people change their character class from the most useful/fun to the farmable build (again). Let's say I know as a monk that healing is a factor, now I'm going to start wasting energy in battles healing people when they're full and fighting with the other monks over who can cast their spells on the guy who just got nicked fastest. I don't think this will lead to productive team play, rather I think it will make PuGs much much worse.

But as an aside, I think that changing the reward system is the way to go. So long as it's profitable at all to go out alone, people will do it. If you get the same rewards if you're alone or with a group, most people will try and tag along with a group since it would (probably) be easier than going out alone. Plus those people who are interested in the challenge of solo farming can still feel free too (but there's no reason to do it outside of the challenge).

-Diomedes

[Tigris Of Gaul]

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

I'd just like to point out that pretty much everything with the exception of faction unlocked mods are easily obtainable via collectors. Items with 15>50 aren't rare. Gold items with 15>50 are, and they're a status symbol. I don't mind using my collector's healing ankh, or my collector's holy wand, because they're just as good as the PvP items, because they ARE the pvp items without the word PvP in their names.

I don't mind using collector's items at all either. But as of right now, if I want to have a sword with 15% more damage while my health is above 50%, I have to find the damn thing or pay for it. No collector has it.

But my main point is, why do Guild Wars have variance in mods anyway? For a game where items are supposed to matter, why should a 10% damage while enchanted hammer drop when you can 15% ones? Why do people get to charge obscene amounts for +30 mods, +5/-1 mods, etc.? Because however slightly, those increases matter, and you shouldn't have that. Just make everything uniform and let people spend more money for aesthetic reasons.

Having a +15% sword drop while a +10% sword can drop is like having every one out of a 1000 armors that are crafted have better mods than the others.

EDIT: In regards to skills...
Zealot's Fire should be looked at. Enchant removal should be buffed.
The hammer line is pretty narrow...

Also, anything outside of Gladiator's Armor, Knight's Boots, and Stonefist Gauntlets is pretty much useless. Why not make the other sets more appealing?

[Orochim4ru]

actually, i get a rather large amount of 13 and 14 % >50 swords. The extra 1% isn't really a huge issue to me. The issue is, really if you're willing to pay for the 1%, which is fairly aesthetic.

For a game where items are supposed to matter, why should a 10% damage while enchanted hammer drop when you can 15% ones? Why do people get to charge obscene amounts for +30 mods, +5/-1 mods, etc.? Because however slightly, those increases matter, and you shouldn't have that. Just make everything uniform and let people spend more money for aesthetic reasons.

This takes away another carrot in PvE. I personally like finding better items and upgrading. The differences, as you've said aren't huge, so i can live with a +19% enchant wrapping vs. a 20 one and keep my money.

[Tigris Of Gaul]

It's not aesthetic. 15k armor will never give you an edge. 1% will.

Would you feel comfortable knowing that your Orison healed for 3 less than another player's Orison at the same level? What about knowing that Droknar's just crafted you an armor that's 59 AL, and not 60?

You want better items through PvP, you have them with weapon damages and shield ALs. You may say taking variance away from mods takes a "carrot" away from PvE, but it only helps that player who wishes to PvP with this RP character...

[ExplosiveBadger]

Originally Posted by Mayar third Keeper

-> no more racism or nationalism

What exactly is wrong with having pride in your country? In PvP it matters the most. When you're going against say Korea, you beat em' shouting USA,USA,USA, A-OK. Nothin' wrong with that. I agree on the fact of no racisim. But you should reconsider the nationalism thing.

[Orochim4ru]

The edge of 1% is around equal to the edge people can get by making their character models larger or smaller in order to make them more difficult to see or more blocky to distract more. Honestly, in game terms a warrior deals ~70dps if conditions are perfect. This changes to 69.3dps with 1% less. Not a huge change. Perfectly viable either way. You CAN pvp with a +14%>50 weapon. It isn't going to kill you. Even the most spikey attack in the game, chain lightning, goes from 162 to 160.32.

With overhealing monks and no bonus for overkilling someone, i don't see why you're saying that the difference in dmg that 1% makes is huge. If you want to PvP with your RP character, you already can. The greatest obstacle to doing so is attribute points and buying new armors.

More to the point, the classes which need to change most radically in order to suit builds already have their items available in the collectors.

Would you feel comfortable knowing that your Orison healed for 3 less than another player's Orison at the same level

If my orison was healing 297 vs. 300, i wouldn't mind too much, no. Now.. if only my orison could heal 300 dmg...

[Tigris Of Gaul]

I'm not saying the difference is huge. I'm saying there's a difference.

Exact same builds fight against each other. Equally skilled, equal in skills.
One team's items are perfect, the other team's is not. Who wins?

Many of these mods are perfectly fine without variation. Zealous works fine. None of the lengthen duration mods need variation. Why do +%, +AL, +life need variation?

[Sarus]

Currently, if a team member drops while in the middle of mission (GvG, Tombs, Arena, or PvE) they are replaced with a henchman.


Is this new? When did this happen?

You're right. I overspoke.
It actually might not happen in PvE. I don't play PvE enough to know. Maybe if you're in an EA and someone drops, then you zone into a new EA you get a henchman replace the dropped player. I just assumed it did . I know in tombs you get the henchmen. In GvG you get nothing. In arena you get a random new player who comes from the random arena (I think). If someone has an exact answer on this it would be appreciated so I can clear up the original post.

[Kaylee Ann]

IN PvE you get nothing. In tombs you get a henchman only after you move on to the next map. GvG you get nothing. Arena is a random player after you win.

[Orochim4ru]

Exact same builds fight against each other. Equally skilled, equal in skills.
One team's items are perfect, the other team's is not. Who wins?

No one. They sit there healing perfectly because casters don't have differences in heal ability and no one ever dies. the difference in .7 dps is around 1/140'th of an orison per second, meaning its around 5 energy per 2 minutes and 20 seconds during which time 4 pips regens 186.6 energy, leaving the monk with a paltry 3.992 pips effective.

[Tigris Of Gaul]

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

No one. They sit there healing perfectly because casters don't have differences in heal ability and no one ever dies. the difference in .7 dps is around 1/140'th of an orison per second, meaning its around 5 energy per 2 minutes and 20 seconds during which time 4 pips regens 186.6 energy, leaving the monk with a paltry 3.992 pips effective.

/sigh. Ok.

You have two teams battling it out. By some happening, the only people left are two warriors. Same armor, same skills, no resses. The first warrior has a sword with +15% dmg while health > 50%, +5 defense, and a +3 health per hit/-1 health regen. The second has +10% dmg, +1 defense, and +1/-1. The 1st warrior wins.

Item variance should not be in the game. There may be some time where you need that 1, 2, 3 damage to make a difference. And to have that in the game is dumb.

Originally Posted by arredondo

I want to start a topic at a sports website: Who's the greatest NBA center, but don't mention Shaq. Love him or hate him (he left L.A., so I hate him :P), it's ridiculous to put up rules like this.

Is Shaq someone the NBA has spoken against? No. Suggesting UAS in a "How can we improve the game?" thread is like responding to a "How do we generate interest in the MLB?" with "Give them pads and tackle each other!"

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

Their desires for the game (typically UAS) tend towards the extreme solutions that we are unlikely to implement. One of our goals for Guild Wars is to make sure that a Role Playing character can be brought into PvP and compete with PvP characters. A UAS option cuts into this goal significantly.

EDIT: Sorry for the spam.

[Sarus]

Concerning item modifiers. I'm going to ask that this topic be dropped as both sides are simply saying the same thing back and forth to each other with no new arguments.

I will look through all the threads on the topic, consolidate, summarize and add it as an issue with pros and cons to the main thread. At that point feel free to add to the pros/cons if you think I missed anything.

As a reminder we're really trying to focus on large game mechanic issues here. I know everyone has there own little pet peeves and if we decided to make a list of them it'd be 400 pages long. Then you'd have to have a 10,000 page list of arguments as to why the first 400 page list is stupid and should never be implemented. (I think you get the idea).

I realize it's sort of arbitrary as to what is a big picture game mechanic and what is a pet peeve but try to use your best judgment as sometimes it's pretty obvious.

Like I said, we're trying to stick to big picture issues.

[Orochim4ru]

I actually think that item modifiers are a fairly large part of the game. From a pvp perspective, they aren't, but they're very much important in pve. Now, as previously stated, i think that near perfect mods are available easily.

Now, if we want to incorporate an equal playing field for pvp and pve characters, we'd need to essentially let an end game pve character be equal to pvp characters. We can accomplish this in several ways:

Do not change the items themselves, but change the rate at which they are dropped. If a character recieves 30 max damage gold items during its lifetime, it is almost certain he'll have an item he can use, or he'll have enough to get one that he needs.

Give a 10-20 skill point bonus to players who have finished the game, to allow them to backtrack and take skills they don't already have.

Get rid of the botters. Self explanatory.

Get rid of attribute refunds.

Allow characters who switch secondaries to use any skills from the new secondary class that they've previously unlocked.

Edit: whoops, meant refunds.

[Tigris Of Gaul]

Spirits and the Ghostly Hero.
I have no problem with the Ghostly Hero being bodyblocked, but a lot of times he just gets stuck on random things and stays there. I've even had him float up into the air, but someone told me henchmen do that sometimes as well. In KotH maps, I'd just suggest that the area where he can start capping be larger.

While we're on the subject of KotH, make the Hall of Heroes a simple 1v1 map. Hell, you could even make it like an actual tournament, just a lot of 1v1s. But I like relic runs, KotH, etc. just not when HoH is KotH. And the current six team maps, either make those 4 teams or 8 teams. That'd improve Tombs a lot. In GvG, make the Guild Lord like a priest. When he dies, you stop ressing.

Now for spirits. I don't have any problems with the actual effects of any spirits except for Nature's Renewal and Fertile Season. Quickening Zephyr maybe, but not as much as the first 2. Fertile should effect entities that are in your party screen; teammates, Ghostly, Priest, pets, etc.

If spirits are to be tangible and killable, then there needs to be some limiting factor. Maybe Death Penalty, maybe shared health, etc., just as long as they can't be spammed to prevent movement. Now, 2-3 copies is reasonable to make them stick, but when you're trapped in because they've spammed spirits , that's dumb. Or, you could keep them as is but transparent. In that case, it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to kill them, so you need some type of skill to disable them. Maybe like a Rend Spirits, where for each spirit removed you take 40 damage.

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Get rid of attribute points.

I'm hoping you meant attribute refunds... otherwise, no.

[arredondo]

Originally Posted by Sarus

Concerning item modifiers. I'm going to ask that this topic be dropped as both sides are simply saying the same thing back and forth to each other with no new arguments.

I will look through all the threads on the topic, consolidate, summarize and add it as an issue with pros and cons to the main thread. At that point feel free to add to the pros/cons if you think I missed anything.

As a reminder we're really trying to focus on large game mechanic issues here. I know everyone has there own little pet peeves and if we decided to make a list of them it'd be 400 pages long. Then you'd have to have a 10,000 page list of arguments as to why the first 400 page list is stupid and should never be implemented. (I think you get the idea).

I realize it's sort of arbitrary as to what is a big picture game mechanic and what is a pet peeve but try to use your best judgment as sometimes it's pretty obvious.

Like I said, we're trying to stick to big picture issues.

And UAX isn't a play mechanic? Deleting the posts don't change the fact that the topic fits all the criteria except the arbritrary "you can't mention it" rule:

- Is it a major community suggestion? For some in the community, particularly PvP, it can be the only legit issue worth suggesting.

- Is it a play mechanic issue? I'd say balancing the teams in a pure competitive-driven fashion is absolutely a fundamental play mechanic issue.

- Does the popularity of the debated topic make it forbidden? Logic suggests just the opposite, but if that's the case, there are tons of Spirit spam nerf threads debated... why are they allowed?

Perhaps asking for full refund points in towns (I want it) is minor "in the big picture", but UAX as a topic to at least list pros and cons is waaaaaay too major of an issue to not have it's presence on this thread. Just link to the debate threads like you did to others - it need not be re-debated in this thread and I can respect that. At least add it to the main list however.

[Silmor]

I don't agree that Protective Bond abuse will stop being an issue when solo'ing is discouraged or the need for farming is taken away. As far as PvE goes, abusive Protective Bond builds will still be the most powerful by far, and it'll continue to kill off experimentation because there's just no better alternative for it.

For those who say balance isn't important in PvE, I propose that what little longevity PvE has is killed off by dominant builds. If one build gets you through a certain challenge, that build will continue to get you through that certain challenge, unlike in PvP the challenge won't adapt itself to counter your strategy. The existance of dominant builds so abusively powerful that they are fit to overcome 90% of the challenges PvE can offer on solo (including those areas designed specifically for eight-player teams, such as the Underworld) means that no matter what ArenaNet introduces as further content, it's either too easy for the Protective Bond abusers, or way too hard for the people that don't. For new players, they can rest assured that there is a build out there which pretty much works as iddqd did in Doom II - stupidly simple tool to cheap victory, so they're buying an empty game.

Now people might argue "if you don't like it, just don't use it, leave us alone!". It's like having to choose a weapon to beat a challenge, and there's a blunt knife available, and a shiny rocket launcher aside it. Sure, there's going to be people consciously gimping themselves because they enjoy an illusion of challenge, but the existence of the rocket launcher has already broken the actual challenge - they can go back and pick up the rocket launcher any time they want, and force their way through. I don't think ArenaNet should casually shrug off a skill setup that steamrolls what they currently sell as PvE challenge.

Most people don't see a problem with this issue because they're either:
- too green behind the ears to know about Protective Bond abuse
- too busy playing PvP to give a damn about PvE (this Protective Bond setup is indeed laughable in PvP)
- abusing Protective Bond themselves for phat lewt and ultimate pwnage and don't want the evil ArenaNet to nerf their cash cow

But I still believe if ArenaNet cares for its PvE environment, it should crack down on things like this. I'm sorry if my arguments are incoherent, it's a complex issue without a single serious abusive aspect that seriously cuts into enjoyment in the game, rather it dumbs the game down below the radar, and PvE is shallow enough as it is.